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Partial Transcript

The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts

Thursday, June 4, 1997

 Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68 
                      REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT 
                 (Trial to Jury - Volume 132) 

Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH, 
Judge, United States District Court for the District of 
Colorado, commencing at 8:30 a.m., on the 4th day of June, 
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver, 
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription 
  Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street, 
    P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285 
         PATRICK M. RYAN, United States Attorney for the 
Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, 
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff. 
GOELMAN, and VICKI BEHENNA, Special Attorneys to the U.S. 
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver, 
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff. 
RANDALL COYNE, Attorneys at Law, Jones, Wyatt & Roberts, 999 
18th Street, Suite 2460, Denver, Colorado, 80202; MANDY WELCH, 
Attorney at Law, 412 Main, Suite 1150, Houston, Texas, 77002; 
CHERYL A. RAMSEY, Attorney at Law, Szlichta and Ramsey, 8 Main 
Place, Post Office Box 1206, Stillwater, Oklahoma, 74076, and 
CHRISTOPHER L. TRITICO, Attorney at Law, Essmyer, Tritico & 
Clary, 4300 Scotland, Houston, Texas, 77007, appearing for 
Defendant McVeigh. 
                         *  *  *  *  * 
    (In open court at 8:31 a.m.) 
         THE COURT:  Be seated, please. 
         Good morning. 
         We are convened earlier here than -- without the jury 
for purposes of determining the question of whether two 
witnesses have been adversely influenced by observation of 
portions of the trial.  Before we do that, though, I have a 
letter from the Government here regarding the preliminary 
instructions and raising a legal question concerning the 
next-to-the-last paragraph on the issue of reasonable doubt. 
I'm going to delete the paragraph.  I'm not necessarily 
agreeing with the Government's position, but I think there's a 
legal issue that needs to be decided, and I'm not prepared to 
decide it at this time in this case. 
         MR. BURR:  Your Honor, that's all right with us.  We 
have not had time, either.  We just got this before we came 
over here. 
         THE COURT:  And of course this in part relies on the 
Chandler decision, which is a case much debated since it came 
down; so without making the ruling with respect to the burden 
of proof there, I will simply delete that paragraph.  And we'll 
deal with that legal issue before of course final instructions. 
         Then as I understand it, there are two stipulations 
here to be read at some point, and I want to -- when will these 
stipulations come up?  When do you expect them to be read? 
         MR. HARTZLER:  The one relating to the Government's 
evidence doesn't need to be read today. 
         THE COURT:  Okay. 
         MR. HARTZLER:  I think it's unlikely we'll present any 
of that evidence. 
         THE COURT:  And the next one is the defense. 
         MR. BURR:  Yes, near the end of the case with the 
         THE COURT:  I need to clear these stipulations with 
Mr. McVeigh, and he has to read them and discuss them.  So we 
won't be dealing with them now, and you let me know when you're 
ready on those. 
         MR. HARTZLER:  I may have been mistaken, I'm sorry. 
The paragraph 4 relates to an exhibit that could possibly come 
into evidence today; so if I may, I'll just advise the Court -- 
         THE COURT:  Right. 
         MR. HARTZLER:  -- you need to address it now. 
         THE COURT:  We need to give defense counsel 
opportunity to review it and Mr. McVeigh and Mr. McVeigh to 
discuss it with counsel.  So maybe that can be done during the 
noon recess. 
         MR. HARTZLER:  Thank you. 
         THE COURT:  Now, I want to make clear and I'm sure 
everybody already recognizes it, but the record should show 
that we're going to continue the order sequestering witnesses 
during this phase of the case as well as has previously been 
the rule during the trial. 
         With that, I think we're prepared to provide the 
opportunity to voir dire these witnesses if someone will 
identify who they are and what they're expected to testify 
about and tell us what the parts of the trial they have seen. 
         Mr. Mackey, are you going to -- 
         MR. MACKEY:  I can begin on behalf of the witness 
Diane Leonard. 
         THE COURT:  Leonard. 
         MR. MACKEY:  L-E-O-N-A-R-D.  Miss Leonard was married 
to Don Leonard, who was a Secret Service agent killed in the 
bombing.  She would testify about Mr. Leonard's career with the 
Secret Service that spanned more than 24 years, some of his 
assignments and accomplishments.  She would describe the events 
surrounding April 19 and her first awareness of the bombing and 
learning of her husband's death, and then she would describe 
the impact of that loss on herself and three sons that she and 
Mr. Leonard raised.  The three sons are from a previous 
marriage, but they were an active part of their family unit. 
         THE COURT:  What parts of the trial did she observe? 
         MR. MACKEY:  Of all the witnesses, your Honor, that 
have seen portions of the trial proceedings, she has seen the 
most.  It may well have been virtually all of the trial.  She 
has been, I know, to Denver on one occasion and has been in 
this courtroom and on other occasions watched the 
closed-circuit telecast in Oklahoma City. 
         I would expect when asked that she would assure the 
Court that that observation does not impact or influence the 
way she would describe her testimony. 
         THE COURT:  All right.  Who is the other one? 
         MS. BEHENNA:  The other witness, your Honor, is Dora 
Reyes.  Dora Reyes had a son and a husband who both worked for 
HUD.  She will talk about her search for her husband and her 
son.  Her son is injured as a result of falling, I believe, 
four floors from the 7th floor to the basement level.  She'll 
talk about the search for her husband.  Her husband, Tony 
Reyes, is killed in the building.  She'll talk about the impact 
upon her life that event has had as well as to define Tony 
Reyes' loss to the community.  He was very involved in the 
Hispanic community in Oklahoma City, and she'll give some 
information about that.  Dora Reyes has watched one day of the 
trial.  It's my understanding that was closing arguments, your 
         THE COURT:  Here?  Was she here? 
         MS. BEHENNA:  She was at the closed-circuit TV in 
Oklahoma City. 
         THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  Well, let's start with 
Ms. Leonard. 
         I suggest what we do -- go ahead -- what we do is -- 
Mr. Mackey, are you going to do the direct of this witness? 
         MR. MACKEY:  Yes, I am, your Honor. 
         THE COURT:  Establish what you've just established 
with me with respect to what she has seen and so forth, and 
then we'll voir dire. 
         MR. MACKEY:  And I'll turn it over. 
         THE COURT:  Yes. 
         MR. MACKEY:  Yes, sir. 
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right 
hand, please. 
    (Diane Leonard affirmed.) 
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please. 
         Would you state your full name for the record and 
spell your last name. 
         THE WITNESS:  Diane Leonard, L-E-O-N-A-R-D. 
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you. 
         THE COURT:  Ms. Leonard, let me just explain to you. 
We're here without the jury at this time.  The purpose of this 
having you come in before we resume with the hearing is to ask 
questions of you so that I can determine whether you will be 
permitted to testify. 
         THE WITNESS:  I understand. 
         THE COURT:  And these questions are going to relate to 
whatever influence there might have been or whatever effect on 
your testimony might result from your having seen most or all 
of the trial.  So that's why we're here. 
         THE WITNESS:  Okay. 
         THE COURT:  And Mr. Mackey, I'm sure you know -- 
         THE WITNESS:  Yes. 
         THE COURT:  -- will ask you some preliminary 
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION 
Q.  Good morning, Miss Leonard. 
A.  Good morning. 
Q.  Tell the Judge where you reside. 
A.  I reside in Edmond, Oklahoma, which is a suburb of Oklahoma 
Q.  And are you the widow of Don Leonard, former Secret Service 
A.  Yes, I am. 
Q.  Who was killed in the bombing in April of '95. 
A.  That's correct. 
Q.  Since the bombing, Miss Leonard, have you had occasion to 
follow the trial proceedings that have just recently concluded? 
A.  Yes, I have. 
Q.  And would you outline for his Honor precisely what it is 
that you saw, on how many occasions you went to Denver and how 
many occasions you watched closed-circuit TV? 
A.  I came to Denver during the pretrial hearing when you made 
the ruling about impact witnesses.  I was at every pretrial 
hearing prior to that time, and I attended every day of 
testimony.  There were a couple of days I had appointments, and 
I had to leave; but I was in the courtroom -- in either this 
courtroom or closed-circuit -- every day during testimony.  I 
    Diane Leonard - Direct (Out of the presence of the jury) 
was in this courtroom only one week.  Prior to today. 
         THE COURT:  Which week was that? 
         THE WITNESS:  Week 2. 
         THE COURT:  Of the taking of testimony? 
         THE WITNESS:  Right. 
Q.  And on other occasions, then, did you attend the 
closed-circuit telecast in Oklahoma City? 
A.  Yes, I did. 
Q.  Have you been mindful of his Honor's ruling concerning 
potential testimony offered by impact witnesses, vis-a-vis the 
question of how it might influence what you would say to this 
A.  I've been very mindful of that.  However, I had such a 
strong need to understand what had happened, and I felt like my 
life has been like a puzzle; and only the border was there. 
The interior pieces were scattered.  And it's been very helpful 
for me to hear what occurred, to be able to put those pieces 
into place. 
Q.  Miss Leonard, with those observations of trial both here in 
Denver and in Oklahoma City, can you assure the Court that you 
can deliver the testimony to the jury about the facts of Don 
Leonard's life without being unduly influenced by what you've 
seen in this trial proceeding? 
A.  Absolutely. 
    Diane Leonard - Direct (Out of the presence of the jury) 
Q.  And can you assure his Honor that you can do in similar 
regard a description of the impact on your life and the family 
A.  The impact has been felt for a long time.  Yes, I can. 
         MR. MACKEY:  Is that sufficient, your Honor? 
         THE COURT:  I'll ask a couple of questions and then 
defense counsel may. 
Q.  Understand you're not on trial here or in any way is there 
some suggestion that you acted inappropriately by observing the 
trial.  What we're looking for is what -- whether your 
observations of the trial and your emotional reaction and all 
the other type of reactions, intellectually, too, that you may 
have had from what you've seen and heard with respect to the 
trial might affect your testimony.  So we're trying to compare 
what you would be testifying about and how you would be 
testifying if you hadn't seen the trial as compared with the 
fact that you have. 
A.  All right. 
Q.  So let me just ask you a couple of questions, and please 
recognize that I'm not asking these in any accusatory way.  But 
it is human nature to react to some things that happen at a 
trial, including the judge.  I mean I'm not unmindful that my 
first ruling when you were present in the courtroom when I made 
Diane Leonard - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury) 
it, apparently, probably shocked and angered you and you had 
some reaction to that.  I understand that.  And just because 
we're a few feet from each other and I'm asking you these 
questions, I don't want you to be hesitant about telling me 
honestly how you felt about that. 
A.  I was very disappointed in that ruling, obviously, because 
from April 19, 1995, I wanted to learn everything I could about 
what had happened.  There have been lots of rulings that you've 
made that a lot of people were not happy with, but I could find 
something positive, long range, about each of those rulings, 
except this one; and I couldn't find a long-range positive to 
that one, so that's why it did disturb me.  Yes, it did. 
Q.  All right.  Well, one of the reactions, I suppose, that you 
could have from that -- and you know the background.  The 
reason that you're here now is because of the efforts by many 
to enact legislation that required me to consider -- 
A.  Right. 
Q.  -- the testimony of victims who had seen the trial, and 
that's why you're here. 
A.  Right. 
Q.  And one of the things, I suppose, that's fair to ask you is 
whether you have the view now that, Okay, I want to get in 
there -- and I'm paraphrasing, very crudely -- but I want to 
get in there and tell them what I think and this Judge has 
learned his lesson or something like that. 
Diane Leonard - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury) 
A.  No, I don't feel that way at all.  I just want to -- to 
explain who Don was and the impact this crime has had on my 
life, and the impact came when I saw the building and when I 
was informed of my husband's body had been found and when I saw 
Q.  And then of course in this trial, you've seen Mr. McVeigh? 
A.  Yes, I have. 
Q.  And I'm aware that seeing a person accused and now 
convicted of the crime that lost -- caused your husband's 
death, you can certainly have reactions about him, and I'm not 
asking you to detail those.  I'm just asking you whether you 
can honestly tell us whether you can separate out any anger or 
feeling that you need to get revenge or anything like that from 
your ability to testify truthfully as to the matters that 
you're going to be asked. 
A.  I don't really understand this, but I can honestly tell you 
that I have never felt anger toward Mr. McVeigh -- a few days, 
the first few days after this occurred, I had some general 
anger.  The first time I saw him on TV, I did not get angry.  I 
decided early on that it took a lot of energy to be angry, and 
I had too many other place -- I didn't have that much energy 
left; and what I had left, I had too many other places to put 
it.  So I've directed my energy in different directions other 
than anger. 
Q.  And I'm just going to add to that, of course, the concern 
Diane Leonard - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury) 
that we might have that you feel anger to the lawyers, about 
the lawyers who've been representing Mr. McVeigh because that, 
too, is a possible human reaction, that these people have 
raised objections, have made arguments in his favor, have 
opposed the Government's case and the evidence.  Tell us what 
your reaction to that has been and whether that may influence 
you as a witness. 
A.  I can honestly say that I felt more anger toward things 
that the defense said prior to the trial. 
Q.  Some of the motions before trial you're talking about? 
A.  Oh, some of the comments in the media were difficult to 
hear.  But when I went in the closed-circuit or this courtroom 
each day, I've tried to approach this whole thing the way my 
husband would have:  He -- when there was an occurrence, he 
would investigate, he would get all the information he could, 
and then continue from there.  And I've just been trying to do 
the same thing.  And when I come in the courtroom, I put on my 
cognitive hat rather than my emotional one, and I've just 
really, truly been trying to learn what occurred so I can get 
this puzzle together and go on to the next one. 
Q.  You understand that's why you're a witness here, to tell 
the jury what occurred, to give them information so that they 
can make the very difficult decision that this jury is going to 
be required to make. 
A.  Right. 
Diane Leonard - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury) 
Q.  And that is what the sentence should be.  And they have to 
make that as a moral judgment, and they have to make it free 
from any of the passions that we feel and the emotions that we 
A.  Right.  I understand. 
Q.  All right. 
         THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Nigh -- who, Mr. Nigh? 
         MR. NIGH:  Yes, your Honor. 
         THE COURT:  You're going to ask questions of 
Ms. Leonard. 
         You know that Mr. Nigh is one of the attorneys for 
Mr. McVeigh. 
Q.  Good morning, Miss Leonard. 
A.  Good morning. 
Q.  As I understood what you were telling Mr. Mackey when he 
was asking you questions, you've essentially seen almost all of 
the trial? 
A.  Yes, sir. 
Q.  Including the testimony of rescue workers, Mr. Avera, for 
example, and things like, did you see that? 
A.  Yes, sir, I believe I did. 
Q.  About the events on the 19th. 
A.  Yes. 
   Diane Leonard - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury) 
Q.  And if I understood, also, one of the things that you will 
offer testimony about is what happened with you on the 19th? 
A.  That's correct. 
Q.  And you traveled to Oklahoma City on the 19th? 
A.  That's correct. 
Q.  Did you see some of the same sights when you were there 
personally that you have seen in the form of exhibits when the 
Government was presenting its case about what happened? 
A.  What is -- 
Q.  Pictures of the building or the streets or -- 
A.  I was there that day. 
Q.  And did you see some pictures during the Government's case 
which showed some of the same scenes? 
A.  Most of those things I think were on when we were at 
closed-circuit, and a lot of things that were shown in the 
courtroom were difficult to see there, but I did of course hear 
all the testimony. 
Q.  Did that help you to recall some of the things that had 
happened with you on the 19th, some of the sights and sounds 
and emotions that you felt? 
A.  That's not where my mind was.  I was concentrating on each 
thing that each person was saying and trying to put an order to 
this -- to this tragedy in my mind. 
Q.  And you've described that as pieces of a puzzle -- 
A.  Right. 
   Diane Leonard - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury) 
Q.  -- that you tried to put together. 
         I also understand that one of the things that you will 
discuss or testify about will be the impact that this has had 
upon your life? 
A.  True. 
Q.  And the life of your family? 
A.  Right. 
Q.  Has being present in the -- during the descriptions of 
these events helped you to sort through some of that, to figure 
out what impact that it has had upon your life? 
A.  Absolutely not.  The impact occurred in 1995, and I have 
been on a quest for answers ever since; and I have asked a lot 
of questions along the way, a lot of the -- that type thing 
that I heard I had learned a lot about before.  I've talked to 
a lot of people and tried to learn as much as I could about 
what happened. 
Q.  But the testimony didn't help you sort through any of that? 
A.  It helps me put the pieces of this puzzle into place, to 
understand what occurred. 
Q.  Ms. Leonard, in terms of what you intend to say about the 
impact upon your life, did you ever have occasion to write that 
out and try to put that on paper about what the impact was or 
how you would express the impact? 
A.  I have not written down what I will say, no.  There have 
been times -- I've kept a journal, and I write thoughts, but I 
   Diane Leonard - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury) 
have not written my impact testimony down. 
Q.  Has your journal covered what you feel the impact to be? 
A.  My journal mostly covered what was going on each day.  It 
was more a -- it's more a cognitive journal than an emotional 
Q.  Has that been something that you've kept, including during 
the time that you were watching the trial? 
A.  I didn't do it during the trial.  I've not done it for 
several months.  I did it like the first year, I think, about 
the first year. 
Q.  I believe that you said that you were going to offer 
testimony about your husband's service as a Secret Service 
agent -- 
A.  Correct. 
Q.  -- and some of his accomplishments. 
         And the events that you experienced and observed on 
April the 19th.  Is that right? 
A.  The events -- I'm sorry, can you repeat -- 
Q.  What happened when you came to Oklahoma City on April 19, 
you're going to describe that as well? 
A.  I assume so. 
Q.  And then the impact of the loss of your husband upon 
yourself and the children? 
A.  Correct. 
Q.  Are there any other areas that you intend to offer 
   Diane Leonard - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury) 
testimony about? 
A.  Not that I'm aware of. 
         MR. NIGH:  Thank you, your Honor, that's all the 
questions I have. 
         Thank you, Ms. Leonard. 
         THE COURT:  Mr. Mackey. 
                     REDIRECT EXAMINATION 
Q.  Just one point of clarification for the record, 
Mrs. Leonard.  You insisted, did you not, to observe your 
husband's body? 
A.  Yes, I did. 
Q.  And you understand in our pretrial discussion that is not a 
question that I intend to ask you and you should not interpret 
any question by the defense to describe what condition you saw 
your husband's body in?  You understand that? 
A.  Correct. 
Q.  That's a pledge that you can make to this court? 
A.  Right. 
Q.  And you can deliver your testimony without describing that 
A.  I can absolutely. 
         MR. MACKEY:  Thank you, your Honor. 
         THE COURT:  Thank you. 
         THE WITNESS:  Thank you. 
         THE COURT:  Now, when you come back in -- we'll 
discuss this.  I have to give the opportunity for objections to 
be made and so forth, and I'll make that determination.  If you 
come back as a witness, you'll be taking the oath again.  It's 
just that a part of testifying is for the jury to see the 
witness take the oath and everything about the person 
         You understand that from having seen the trial. 
         THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir. 
         THE COURT:  All right.  You can step down, and we'll 
get Miss Reyes. 
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you raise your right 
hand, please. 
    (Dora Reyes affirmed.) 
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Would you have a seat, please. 
         Would you state your full name for the record and 
spell your last name. 
         THE WITNESS:  Dora Reyes, R-E-Y-E-S. 
         THE COURTROOM DEPUTY:  Thank you. 
Q.  Miss Reyes, you're here without the jury present, and the 
reason is that I've asked that you come in ahead of time so 
that we can ask you a few questions because Miss Behenna has 
explained to us that -- generally what you're going to be asked 
   Dora Reyes - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury) 
questions about and testimony concerning your husband and 
identified that the information that you saw one day of the 
A.  I went to the -- last Thursday to the summation. 
Q.  Closing arguments, yes. 
A.  And Friday to the jury instruction. 
Q.  All right.  Now, how about before the trial, did you see 
any of the pretrial motions and so forth? 
A.  Yes, in Oklahoma City, for the change of venue.  And about 
a year ago here.  I was here the day that we had to leave at 
noon because if we were going to be impact witnesses, we 
couldn't come back. 
Q.  So you were here the day that I made the ruling about the 
A.  Yes. 
Q.  Not a good day for you and others, I'm sure. 
         And understand that you're not being accused of 
anything; we're just trying to sort out whether any of your 
experience or observations in connection with the trial could 
influence the testimony that you're expected to give here.  So 
that's why you've been brought in ahead of time so that we 
could ask you a few questions. 
         Miss Behenna. 
         MS. BEHENNA:  Thank you, your Honor. 
                      DIRECT EXAMINATION 
    Dora Reyes - Direct (Out of the presence of the jury) 
Q.  Miss Reyes, where do you live? 
A.  Edmond, Oklahoma. 
Q.  And you stated in response to the Judge's questions that 
you had seen some things, pretrial motions and hearings. 
         You also observed none of the trial testimony; is that 
A.  None. 
Q.  Didn't hear about -- what any of the witnesses had to say 
in this case? 
A.  No, I did not. 
Q.  Your only observation of this trial once it began on 
March 31, would it have been the summation? 
A.  Right. 
Q.  And then the instructions given by the Judge to the jury? 
A.  Right. 
Q.  Was there anything about what you observed in the pretrial 
hearings that would cause you to change your testimony about 
the impact this crime has had upon you? 
A.  My testimony has nothing to do with the trial.  It has to 
do with the impact on my life and how my life is going since 
the bombing. 
Q.  And your observation of the summation, the closing 
arguments, did any of that cause you to change your testimony? 
A.  No. 
    Dora Reyes - Direct (Out of the presence of the jury) 
Q.  And the same question, and I guess the same response with 
regard to watching the instructions that you watched on Friday? 
A.  That's correct. 
         MS. BEHENNA:  Your Honor, I believe that's all I have. 
         THE COURT:  All right. 
Q.  Well, I'm sure you remember the day that I made the ruling 
here in court; that is, that the witnesses -- and you were here 
in the morning and then not in the afternoon.  You know, I 
don't want to be unfair to you here.  We're just a little ways 
apart, and I'm wearing a black robe and you're not.  But you 
got angry about that, I'm sure, at the time. 
A.  I don't think it was anger as much as a feeling of 
Q.  Puzzlement as to why this would be, doesn't seem reasonable 
to you? 
A.  But I was willing to go through the process as it had to be 
Q.  And then of course you're here now because Congress made a 
change in the law and perhaps you were a part of that; I'm not 
asking you, you know, whether you had any initiative in that 
regard or anything.  All I want to know is there anything about 
what you observed or this court's previous ruling that -- and 
I'm asking you to just honestly tell us what's in your mind and 
   Dora Reyes - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury) 
heart -- that now that you may have the chance to come in here 
to testify, that your testimony would be different if that 
hadn't happened? 
A.  No, it will not be different. 
Q.  You know, a sort of "Get back at you, Judge," type thing? 
A.  No. 
Q.  I have to ask you these questions -- 
A.  That's fine. 
Q.  -- but I didn't suspect that it was the case. 
         Also you saw Mr. McVeigh in the pretrial hearing, and 
you also saw him on closed-circuit television as you saw this 
whole scene.  Anything about observing Mr. McVeigh in court or 
any of his reactions that you can say influences you in any 
         Can you keep all of that out of any testimony you're 
asked to give? 
A.  Yes. 
Q.  And how about his lawyers:  I'm sure you may have strongly 
disagreed with closing argument made by lawyers and some of 
their motions and can look at, well, these lawyers have tried 
everything they can to derail or obstruct the Government's 
case.  These are things that could occur.  I simply want to ask 
you honestly to tell us whether anything about the lawyers' 
conduct in the defense of Mr. McVeigh has any influence on the 
testimony that you're expected to give. 
   Dora Reyes - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury) 
A.  None at all. 
Q.  Well, what I really want to know is -- and it's not an easy 
question -- would your testimony be the same today as it would 
be if you never had seen any of the case? 
A.  My testimony will not change.  It will be the same. 
         THE COURT:  Mr. Burr, do you have some questions? 
Q.  Good morning.  My name is Dick Burr.  I'm one of the 
lawyers representing Mr. McVeigh. 
         I on occasion had some role in arguing about whether 
victim-impact witnesses could be in the courtroom.  Were you 
present for any of those times that you remember? 
A.  I don't. 
Q.  Did you have -- around the time that the ruling was made 
that allowed -- that had victim-impact witnesses excluded, I 
think you said you had not really anger but a feeling of 
frustration.  Did you have a sense of who was responsible for 
that; did you sort of feel somebody was to blame for that? 
A.  No. 
Q.  Is it -- I was a little unclear about how many times you'd 
actually been in this courtroom.  Was it just that one day when 
the ruling was made? 
A.  I keep thinking I came in May and in June.  I may have been 
here one day in May. 
      Dora Reyes - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury) 
Q.  And you think that was before the ruling was made? 
A.  I think so. 
Q.  Do you remember the feeling that you had the first time you 
saw Mr. McVeigh in the courtroom? 
A.  I didn't feel anything. 
Q.  Nothing at all? 
         Turning to the day of the closing arguments, I believe 
you were at the courtroom in Oklahoma City? 
A.  Uh-huh. 
Q.  Or the closed-circuit TV courtroom? 
A.  Uh-huh. 
Q.  Were you there for the entire day? 
A.  Yes. 
Q.  Now, in that courtroom, are there monitors -- are there 
monitors like this where you can see exhibits, or do you just 
see this whole courtroom? 
A.  We just had a big-screen TV sort of thing. 
Q.  And the only thing on there is the picture of what's going 
on in here? 
A.  Right. 
Q.  If exhibits were shown to the jury, did you -- could you 
see them in that courtroom? 
A.  I think some things were shown, but they were very bad 
Q.  Bad in the sense that you could not see them? 
      Dora Reyes - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury) 
A.  You couldn't see. 
Q.  Can you tell us what your thoughts and feelings were as 
Mr. Mackey argued the case against Mr. Veigh -- McVeigh, in 
closing argument? 
A.  I was just listening to what I consider facts as presented. 
I just wanted to listen to the summation. 
Q.  Did you at any time kind of relive the events of April the 
19th and the days thereafter during the argument? 
A.  Towards the end. 
Q.  Can you tell us about that? 
A.  Just as has happened so much in the last two years, 
emotions just well up inside you for your loss, is all I can 
Q.  Did you cry? 
A.  Yes. 
Q.  Did you talk to people after that day about the feelings 
that you had had during that day? 
A.  Not really, no. 
Q.  Share any of these thoughts with your children? 
         Were either of your children there with you that day? 
A.  No. 
         MR. BURR:  No other questions, your Honor. 
         Thank you, Miss Reyes. 
         MS. BEHENNA:  Nothing further. 
         THE COURT:  All right.  Miss Reyes, we'll ask you to 
step out now.  We have to discuss this, give some legal 
argument about it, and then if you come back as a witness, 
we'll be asking you to take the oath again; and that's simply 
because the jury should see each witness take the oath.  That's 
a part of evaluating the testimony of the jury -- of the 
witness by the jury. 
         And of course what we're trying to do here is to make 
sure that the jurors get information that's relevant to the 
hard decision they have to make and that this information which 
is from victims -- which is what you're classified as for this 
purpose -- is, you know, not influenced in any way by any 
emotional reaction that you've had to the trial.  You 
         THE WITNESS:  Yes. 
         THE COURT:  'Cause we're trying to have this jury 
decide on the basis of information, not on the basis of 
emotion.  And I'm sure you agree that that's what we should 
         THE WITNESS:  Yes. 
         THE COURT:  Thank you.  You may step down. 
         Well, counsel for the defendant, do you have any 
objections to these witnesses? 
         Mr. Nigh. 
         MR. NIGH:  Yes, your Honor, it's very brief. 
         THE COURT:  All right.  You can do it from there, 
         MR. NIGH:  We would object to the testimony of both of 
them, in that the observations of the trial cannot, I would 
submit, help but affect their testimony.  In reference to 
Ms. Leonard, she intends to offer testimony about what she 
observed on the 19th.  Certainly there has been a lot of 
evidence concerning the 19th.  And also she is still sorting 
through some of these things.  And she intends to offer 
testimony about impact upon her life, and we would submit that 
that cannot escape influence from the testimony in court. 
         And I believe the same would be true to Miss Reyes in 
terms of impact, and we would also stand upon the objection we 
previously made. 
         THE COURT:  Yes. 
         MR. NIGH:  The constitutional objection. 
         THE COURT:  Yes, I understand. 
         THE COURT:  Well, the issue is whether the 
observations that these witnesses have testified about of trial 
proceedings create a prejudice or will cause any influence or 
effect on the testimony that they're expected to give 
concerning the effects of the crimes; and considering what the 
witnesses have said here and also the demeanor and manner of 
these witnesses, which I think is extremely important -- I mean 
I put these questions, myself, to them in a way in which it 
would seem to me that if they were influenced by this court's 
rulings or defense counsel's zealous advocacy or Mr. McVeigh's 
presence, they would have shown some reaction.  They didn't. 
Strikes me that both of these women are quite disciplined and 
emotionally prepared to give relevant testimony without the 
influence of any emotional reaction to the observations of the 
trial that they have made. 
         So I'm going to permit their testimony. 
         MR. MACKEY:  Your Honor, may I speak to one matter as 
to Diane Leonard? 
         THE COURT:  Yes. 
         MR. MACKEY:  I spoke to Mr. Burr this morning.  There 
is one photograph, family photograph, that I'd like to show 
Mrs. Leonard.  It's Government Exhibit 1452.  It depicts 
Mr. Leonard, Mrs. Leonard, and his three sons gathered before a 
fireplace.  If you look carefully behind the persons, you can 
see some Christmas decorations, and if asked, she would say it 
was taken during the holiday season.  I've instructed her, if 
we identify this photograph, she is not to use the word 
"Christmas."  I did want to alert the Court, and I told 
Mr. Burr about the same matter. 
         THE COURT:  So it isn't going to be testimony "This 
was our last Christmas together" or something like that. 
         MR. MACKEY:  No. 
         MR. BURR:  I told Mr. Mackey we did not object. 
         THE COURT:  All right.