Partial Transcript
The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Thursday, June 4, 1997
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury - Volume 132)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 8:30 a.m., on the 4th day of June,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK M. RYAN, United States Attorney for the
Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400,
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
JOSEPH H. HARTZLER, SEAN CONNELLY, LARRY A. MACKEY,
BETH WILKINSON, SCOTT MENDELOFF, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, AITAN
GOELMAN, and VICKI BEHENNA, Special Attorneys to the U.S.
Attorney General, 1961 Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver,
Colorado, 80294, appearing for the plaintiff.
STEPHEN JONES, ROBERT NIGH, JR., RICHARD BURR, and
RANDALL COYNE, Attorneys at Law, Jones, Wyatt & Roberts, 999
18th Street, Suite 2460, Denver, Colorado, 80202; MANDY WELCH,
Attorney at Law, 412 Main, Suite 1150, Houston, Texas, 77002;
CHERYL A. RAMSEY, Attorney at Law, Szlichta and Ramsey, 8 Main
Place, Post Office Box 1206, Stillwater, Oklahoma, 74076, and
CHRISTOPHER L. TRITICO, Attorney at Law, Essmyer, Tritico &
Clary, 4300 Scotland, Houston, Texas, 77007, appearing for
Defendant McVeigh.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 8:31 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
Good morning.
We are convened earlier here than -- without the jury
for purposes of determining the question of whether two
witnesses have been adversely influenced by observation of
portions of the trial. Before we do that, though, I have a
letter from the Government here regarding the preliminary
instructions and raising a legal question concerning the
next-to-the-last paragraph on the issue of reasonable doubt.
I'm going to delete the paragraph. I'm not necessarily
agreeing with the Government's position, but I think there's a
legal issue that needs to be decided, and I'm not prepared to
decide it at this time in this case.
MR. BURR: Your Honor, that's all right with us. We
have not had time, either. We just got this before we came
over here.
THE COURT: And of course this in part relies on the
Chandler decision, which is a case much debated since it came
down; so without making the ruling with respect to the burden
of proof there, I will simply delete that paragraph. And we'll
deal with that legal issue before of course final instructions.
Then as I understand it, there are two stipulations
here to be read at some point, and I want to -- when will these
stipulations come up? When do you expect them to be read?
MR. HARTZLER: The one relating to the Government's
evidence doesn't need to be read today.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. HARTZLER: I think it's unlikely we'll present any
of that evidence.
THE COURT: And the next one is the defense.
MR. BURR: Yes, near the end of the case with the
defense.
THE COURT: I need to clear these stipulations with
Mr. McVeigh, and he has to read them and discuss them. So we
won't be dealing with them now, and you let me know when you're
ready on those.
MR. HARTZLER: I may have been mistaken, I'm sorry.
The paragraph 4 relates to an exhibit that could possibly come
into evidence today; so if I may, I'll just advise the Court --
THE COURT: Right.
MR. HARTZLER: -- you need to address it now.
THE COURT: We need to give defense counsel
opportunity to review it and Mr. McVeigh and Mr. McVeigh to
discuss it with counsel. So maybe that can be done during the
noon recess.
MR. HARTZLER: Thank you.
THE COURT: Now, I want to make clear and I'm sure
everybody already recognizes it, but the record should show
that we're going to continue the order sequestering witnesses
during this phase of the case as well as has previously been
the rule during the trial.
With that, I think we're prepared to provide the
opportunity to voir dire these witnesses if someone will
identify who they are and what they're expected to testify
about and tell us what the parts of the trial they have seen.
Mr. Mackey, are you going to --
MR. MACKEY: I can begin on behalf of the witness
Diane Leonard.
THE COURT: Leonard.
MR. MACKEY: L-E-O-N-A-R-D. Miss Leonard was married
to Don Leonard, who was a Secret Service agent killed in the
bombing. She would testify about Mr. Leonard's career with the
Secret Service that spanned more than 24 years, some of his
assignments and accomplishments. She would describe the events
surrounding April 19 and her first awareness of the bombing and
learning of her husband's death, and then she would describe
the impact of that loss on herself and three sons that she and
Mr. Leonard raised. The three sons are from a previous
marriage, but they were an active part of their family unit.
THE COURT: What parts of the trial did she observe?
MR. MACKEY: Of all the witnesses, your Honor, that
have seen portions of the trial proceedings, she has seen the
most. It may well have been virtually all of the trial. She
has been, I know, to Denver on one occasion and has been in
this courtroom and on other occasions watched the
closed-circuit telecast in Oklahoma City.
I would expect when asked that she would assure the
Court that that observation does not impact or influence the
way she would describe her testimony.
THE COURT: All right. Who is the other one?
MS. BEHENNA: The other witness, your Honor, is Dora
Reyes. Dora Reyes had a son and a husband who both worked for
HUD. She will talk about her search for her husband and her
son. Her son is injured as a result of falling, I believe,
four floors from the 7th floor to the basement level. She'll
talk about the search for her husband. Her husband, Tony
Reyes, is killed in the building. She'll talk about the impact
upon her life that event has had as well as to define Tony
Reyes' loss to the community. He was very involved in the
Hispanic community in Oklahoma City, and she'll give some
information about that. Dora Reyes has watched one day of the
trial. It's my understanding that was closing arguments, your
Honor.
THE COURT: Here? Was she here?
MS. BEHENNA: She was at the closed-circuit TV in
Oklahoma City.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Well, let's start with
Ms. Leonard.
I suggest what we do -- go ahead -- what we do is --
Mr. Mackey, are you going to do the direct of this witness?
MR. MACKEY: Yes, I am, your Honor.
THE COURT: Establish what you've just established
with me with respect to what she has seen and so forth, and
then we'll voir dire.
MR. MACKEY: And I'll turn it over.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. MACKEY: Yes, sir.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Diane Leonard affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Diane Leonard, L-E-O-N-A-R-D.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Ms. Leonard, let me just explain to you.
We're here without the jury at this time. The purpose of this
having you come in before we resume with the hearing is to ask
questions of you so that I can determine whether you will be
permitted to testify.
THE WITNESS: I understand.
THE COURT: And these questions are going to relate to
whatever influence there might have been or whatever effect on
your testimony might result from your having seen most or all
of the trial. So that's why we're here.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: And Mr. Mackey, I'm sure you know --
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: -- will ask you some preliminary
questions.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Good morning, Miss Leonard.
A. Good morning.
Q. Tell the Judge where you reside.
A. I reside in Edmond, Oklahoma, which is a suburb of Oklahoma
City.
Q. And are you the widow of Don Leonard, former Secret Service
agent?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Who was killed in the bombing in April of '95.
A. That's correct.
Q. Since the bombing, Miss Leonard, have you had occasion to
follow the trial proceedings that have just recently concluded?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And would you outline for his Honor precisely what it is
that you saw, on how many occasions you went to Denver and how
many occasions you watched closed-circuit TV?
A. I came to Denver during the pretrial hearing when you made
the ruling about impact witnesses. I was at every pretrial
hearing prior to that time, and I attended every day of
testimony. There were a couple of days I had appointments, and
I had to leave; but I was in the courtroom -- in either this
courtroom or closed-circuit -- every day during testimony. I
Diane Leonard - Direct (Out of the presence of the jury)
was in this courtroom only one week. Prior to today.
THE COURT: Which week was that?
THE WITNESS: Week 2.
THE COURT: Of the taking of testimony?
THE WITNESS: Right.
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. And on other occasions, then, did you attend the
closed-circuit telecast in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Have you been mindful of his Honor's ruling concerning
potential testimony offered by impact witnesses, vis-a-vis the
question of how it might influence what you would say to this
jury?
A. I've been very mindful of that. However, I had such a
strong need to understand what had happened, and I felt like my
life has been like a puzzle; and only the border was there.
The interior pieces were scattered. And it's been very helpful
for me to hear what occurred, to be able to put those pieces
into place.
Q. Miss Leonard, with those observations of trial both here in
Denver and in Oklahoma City, can you assure the Court that you
can deliver the testimony to the jury about the facts of Don
Leonard's life without being unduly influenced by what you've
seen in this trial proceeding?
A. Absolutely.
Diane Leonard - Direct (Out of the presence of the jury)
Q. And can you assure his Honor that you can do in similar
regard a description of the impact on your life and the family
members?
A. The impact has been felt for a long time. Yes, I can.
MR. MACKEY: Is that sufficient, your Honor?
THE COURT: I'll ask a couple of questions and then
defense counsel may.
EXAMINATION
BY THE COURT:
Q. Understand you're not on trial here or in any way is there
some suggestion that you acted inappropriately by observing the
trial. What we're looking for is what -- whether your
observations of the trial and your emotional reaction and all
the other type of reactions, intellectually, too, that you may
have had from what you've seen and heard with respect to the
trial might affect your testimony. So we're trying to compare
what you would be testifying about and how you would be
testifying if you hadn't seen the trial as compared with the
fact that you have.
A. All right.
Q. So let me just ask you a couple of questions, and please
recognize that I'm not asking these in any accusatory way. But
it is human nature to react to some things that happen at a
trial, including the judge. I mean I'm not unmindful that my
first ruling when you were present in the courtroom when I made
Diane Leonard - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
it, apparently, probably shocked and angered you and you had
some reaction to that. I understand that. And just because
we're a few feet from each other and I'm asking you these
questions, I don't want you to be hesitant about telling me
honestly how you felt about that.
A. I was very disappointed in that ruling, obviously, because
from April 19, 1995, I wanted to learn everything I could about
what had happened. There have been lots of rulings that you've
made that a lot of people were not happy with, but I could find
something positive, long range, about each of those rulings,
except this one; and I couldn't find a long-range positive to
that one, so that's why it did disturb me. Yes, it did.
Q. All right. Well, one of the reactions, I suppose, that you
could have from that -- and you know the background. The
reason that you're here now is because of the efforts by many
to enact legislation that required me to consider --
A. Right.
Q. -- the testimony of victims who had seen the trial, and
that's why you're here.
A. Right.
Q. And one of the things, I suppose, that's fair to ask you is
whether you have the view now that, Okay, I want to get in
there -- and I'm paraphrasing, very crudely -- but I want to
get in there and tell them what I think and this Judge has
learned his lesson or something like that.
Diane Leonard - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
A. No, I don't feel that way at all. I just want to -- to
explain who Don was and the impact this crime has had on my
life, and the impact came when I saw the building and when I
was informed of my husband's body had been found and when I saw
him.
Q. And then of course in this trial, you've seen Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And I'm aware that seeing a person accused and now
convicted of the crime that lost -- caused your husband's
death, you can certainly have reactions about him, and I'm not
asking you to detail those. I'm just asking you whether you
can honestly tell us whether you can separate out any anger or
feeling that you need to get revenge or anything like that from
your ability to testify truthfully as to the matters that
you're going to be asked.
A. I don't really understand this, but I can honestly tell you
that I have never felt anger toward Mr. McVeigh -- a few days,
the first few days after this occurred, I had some general
anger. The first time I saw him on TV, I did not get angry. I
decided early on that it took a lot of energy to be angry, and
I had too many other place -- I didn't have that much energy
left; and what I had left, I had too many other places to put
it. So I've directed my energy in different directions other
than anger.
Q. And I'm just going to add to that, of course, the concern
Diane Leonard - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
that we might have that you feel anger to the lawyers, about
the lawyers who've been representing Mr. McVeigh because that,
too, is a possible human reaction, that these people have
raised objections, have made arguments in his favor, have
opposed the Government's case and the evidence. Tell us what
your reaction to that has been and whether that may influence
you as a witness.
A. I can honestly say that I felt more anger toward things
that the defense said prior to the trial.
Q. Some of the motions before trial you're talking about?
A. Oh, some of the comments in the media were difficult to
hear. But when I went in the closed-circuit or this courtroom
each day, I've tried to approach this whole thing the way my
husband would have: He -- when there was an occurrence, he
would investigate, he would get all the information he could,
and then continue from there. And I've just been trying to do
the same thing. And when I come in the courtroom, I put on my
cognitive hat rather than my emotional one, and I've just
really, truly been trying to learn what occurred so I can get
this puzzle together and go on to the next one.
Q. You understand that's why you're a witness here, to tell
the jury what occurred, to give them information so that they
can make the very difficult decision that this jury is going to
be required to make.
A. Right.
Diane Leonard - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
Q. And that is what the sentence should be. And they have to
make that as a moral judgment, and they have to make it free
from any of the passions that we feel and the emotions that we
feel.
A. Right. I understand.
Q. All right.
THE COURT: Well, Mr. Nigh -- who, Mr. Nigh?
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You're going to ask questions of
Ms. Leonard.
You know that Mr. Nigh is one of the attorneys for
Mr. McVeigh.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NIGH:
Q. Good morning, Miss Leonard.
A. Good morning.
Q. As I understood what you were telling Mr. Mackey when he
was asking you questions, you've essentially seen almost all of
the trial?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Including the testimony of rescue workers, Mr. Avera, for
example, and things like, did you see that?
A. Yes, sir, I believe I did.
Q. About the events on the 19th.
A. Yes.
Diane Leonard - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
Q. And if I understood, also, one of the things that you will
offer testimony about is what happened with you on the 19th?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you traveled to Oklahoma City on the 19th?
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you see some of the same sights when you were there
personally that you have seen in the form of exhibits when the
Government was presenting its case about what happened?
A. What is --
Q. Pictures of the building or the streets or --
A. I was there that day.
Q. And did you see some pictures during the Government's case
which showed some of the same scenes?
A. Most of those things I think were on when we were at
closed-circuit, and a lot of things that were shown in the
courtroom were difficult to see there, but I did of course hear
all the testimony.
Q. Did that help you to recall some of the things that had
happened with you on the 19th, some of the sights and sounds
and emotions that you felt?
A. That's not where my mind was. I was concentrating on each
thing that each person was saying and trying to put an order to
this -- to this tragedy in my mind.
Q. And you've described that as pieces of a puzzle --
A. Right.
Diane Leonard - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
Q. -- that you tried to put together.
I also understand that one of the things that you will
discuss or testify about will be the impact that this has had
upon your life?
A. True.
Q. And the life of your family?
A. Right.
Q. Has being present in the -- during the descriptions of
these events helped you to sort through some of that, to figure
out what impact that it has had upon your life?
A. Absolutely not. The impact occurred in 1995, and I have
been on a quest for answers ever since; and I have asked a lot
of questions along the way, a lot of the -- that type thing
that I heard I had learned a lot about before. I've talked to
a lot of people and tried to learn as much as I could about
what happened.
Q. But the testimony didn't help you sort through any of that?
A. It helps me put the pieces of this puzzle into place, to
understand what occurred.
Q. Ms. Leonard, in terms of what you intend to say about the
impact upon your life, did you ever have occasion to write that
out and try to put that on paper about what the impact was or
how you would express the impact?
A. I have not written down what I will say, no. There have
been times -- I've kept a journal, and I write thoughts, but I
Diane Leonard - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
have not written my impact testimony down.
Q. Has your journal covered what you feel the impact to be?
A. My journal mostly covered what was going on each day. It
was more a -- it's more a cognitive journal than an emotional
journal.
Q. Has that been something that you've kept, including during
the time that you were watching the trial?
A. I didn't do it during the trial. I've not done it for
several months. I did it like the first year, I think, about
the first year.
Q. I believe that you said that you were going to offer
testimony about your husband's service as a Secret Service
agent --
A. Correct.
Q. -- and some of his accomplishments.
And the events that you experienced and observed on
April the 19th. Is that right?
A. The events -- I'm sorry, can you repeat --
Q. What happened when you came to Oklahoma City on April 19,
you're going to describe that as well?
A. I assume so.
Q. And then the impact of the loss of your husband upon
yourself and the children?
A. Correct.
Q. Are there any other areas that you intend to offer
Diane Leonard - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
testimony about?
A. Not that I'm aware of.
MR. NIGH: Thank you, your Honor, that's all the
questions I have.
Thank you, Ms. Leonard.
THE COURT: Mr. Mackey.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. MACKEY:
Q. Just one point of clarification for the record,
Mrs. Leonard. You insisted, did you not, to observe your
husband's body?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you understand in our pretrial discussion that is not a
question that I intend to ask you and you should not interpret
any question by the defense to describe what condition you saw
your husband's body in? You understand that?
A. Correct.
Q. That's a pledge that you can make to this court?
A. Right.
Q. And you can deliver your testimony without describing that
event?
A. I can absolutely.
MR. MACKEY: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Now, when you come back in -- we'll
discuss this. I have to give the opportunity for objections to
be made and so forth, and I'll make that determination. If you
come back as a witness, you'll be taking the oath again. It's
just that a part of testifying is for the jury to see the
witness take the oath and everything about the person
testifying.
You understand that from having seen the trial.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right. You can step down, and we'll
get Miss Reyes.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Dora Reyes affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Dora Reyes, R-E-Y-E-S.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
EXAMINATION
BY THE COURT:
Q. Miss Reyes, you're here without the jury present, and the
reason is that I've asked that you come in ahead of time so
that we can ask you a few questions because Miss Behenna has
explained to us that -- generally what you're going to be asked
Dora Reyes - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
questions about and testimony concerning your husband and
identified that the information that you saw one day of the
trial.
A. I went to the -- last Thursday to the summation.
Q. Closing arguments, yes.
A. And Friday to the jury instruction.
Q. All right. Now, how about before the trial, did you see
any of the pretrial motions and so forth?
A. Yes, in Oklahoma City, for the change of venue. And about
a year ago here. I was here the day that we had to leave at
noon because if we were going to be impact witnesses, we
couldn't come back.
Q. So you were here the day that I made the ruling about the
witnesses?
A. Yes.
Q. Not a good day for you and others, I'm sure.
And understand that you're not being accused of
anything; we're just trying to sort out whether any of your
experience or observations in connection with the trial could
influence the testimony that you're expected to give here. So
that's why you've been brought in ahead of time so that we
could ask you a few questions.
Miss Behenna.
MS. BEHENNA: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Dora Reyes - Direct (Out of the presence of the jury)
BY MS. BEHENNA:
Q. Miss Reyes, where do you live?
A. Edmond, Oklahoma.
Q. And you stated in response to the Judge's questions that
you had seen some things, pretrial motions and hearings.
You also observed none of the trial testimony; is that
right?
A. None.
Q. Didn't hear about -- what any of the witnesses had to say
in this case?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Your only observation of this trial once it began on
March 31, would it have been the summation?
A. Right.
Q. And then the instructions given by the Judge to the jury?
A. Right.
Q. Was there anything about what you observed in the pretrial
hearings that would cause you to change your testimony about
the impact this crime has had upon you?
A. My testimony has nothing to do with the trial. It has to
do with the impact on my life and how my life is going since
the bombing.
Q. And your observation of the summation, the closing
arguments, did any of that cause you to change your testimony?
A. No.
Dora Reyes - Direct (Out of the presence of the jury)
Q. And the same question, and I guess the same response with
regard to watching the instructions that you watched on Friday?
A. That's correct.
MS. BEHENNA: Your Honor, I believe that's all I have.
THE COURT: All right.
EXAMINATION
BY THE COURT:
Q. Well, I'm sure you remember the day that I made the ruling
here in court; that is, that the witnesses -- and you were here
in the morning and then not in the afternoon. You know, I
don't want to be unfair to you here. We're just a little ways
apart, and I'm wearing a black robe and you're not. But you
got angry about that, I'm sure, at the time.
A. I don't think it was anger as much as a feeling of
frustration.
Q. Puzzlement as to why this would be, doesn't seem reasonable
to you?
A. But I was willing to go through the process as it had to be
done.
Q. And then of course you're here now because Congress made a
change in the law and perhaps you were a part of that; I'm not
asking you, you know, whether you had any initiative in that
regard or anything. All I want to know is there anything about
what you observed or this court's previous ruling that -- and
I'm asking you to just honestly tell us what's in your mind and
Dora Reyes - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
heart -- that now that you may have the chance to come in here
to testify, that your testimony would be different if that
hadn't happened?
A. No, it will not be different.
Q. You know, a sort of "Get back at you, Judge," type thing?
A. No.
Q. I have to ask you these questions --
A. That's fine.
Q. -- but I didn't suspect that it was the case.
Also you saw Mr. McVeigh in the pretrial hearing, and
you also saw him on closed-circuit television as you saw this
whole scene. Anything about observing Mr. McVeigh in court or
any of his reactions that you can say influences you in any
way?
Can you keep all of that out of any testimony you're
asked to give?
A. Yes.
Q. And how about his lawyers: I'm sure you may have strongly
disagreed with closing argument made by lawyers and some of
their motions and can look at, well, these lawyers have tried
everything they can to derail or obstruct the Government's
case. These are things that could occur. I simply want to ask
you honestly to tell us whether anything about the lawyers'
conduct in the defense of Mr. McVeigh has any influence on the
testimony that you're expected to give.
Dora Reyes - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
A. None at all.
Q. Well, what I really want to know is -- and it's not an easy
question -- would your testimony be the same today as it would
be if you never had seen any of the case?
A. My testimony will not change. It will be the same.
THE COURT: Mr. Burr, do you have some questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BURR:
Q. Good morning. My name is Dick Burr. I'm one of the
lawyers representing Mr. McVeigh.
I on occasion had some role in arguing about whether
victim-impact witnesses could be in the courtroom. Were you
present for any of those times that you remember?
A. I don't.
Q. Did you have -- around the time that the ruling was made
that allowed -- that had victim-impact witnesses excluded, I
think you said you had not really anger but a feeling of
frustration. Did you have a sense of who was responsible for
that; did you sort of feel somebody was to blame for that?
A. No.
Q. Is it -- I was a little unclear about how many times you'd
actually been in this courtroom. Was it just that one day when
the ruling was made?
A. I keep thinking I came in May and in June. I may have been
here one day in May.
Dora Reyes - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
Q. And you think that was before the ruling was made?
A. I think so.
Q. Do you remember the feeling that you had the first time you
saw Mr. McVeigh in the courtroom?
A. I didn't feel anything.
Q. Nothing at all?
Turning to the day of the closing arguments, I believe
you were at the courtroom in Oklahoma City?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Or the closed-circuit TV courtroom?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Were you there for the entire day?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in that courtroom, are there monitors -- are there
monitors like this where you can see exhibits, or do you just
see this whole courtroom?
A. We just had a big-screen TV sort of thing.
Q. And the only thing on there is the picture of what's going
on in here?
A. Right.
Q. If exhibits were shown to the jury, did you -- could you
see them in that courtroom?
A. I think some things were shown, but they were very bad
pictures.
Q. Bad in the sense that you could not see them?
Dora Reyes - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
A. You couldn't see.
Q. Can you tell us what your thoughts and feelings were as
Mr. Mackey argued the case against Mr. Veigh -- McVeigh, in
closing argument?
A. I was just listening to what I consider facts as presented.
I just wanted to listen to the summation.
Q. Did you at any time kind of relive the events of April the
19th and the days thereafter during the argument?
A. Towards the end.
Q. Can you tell us about that?
A. Just as has happened so much in the last two years,
emotions just well up inside you for your loss, is all I can
explain.
Q. Did you cry?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you talk to people after that day about the feelings
that you had had during that day?
A. Not really, no.
Q. Share any of these thoughts with your children?
Were either of your children there with you that day?
A. No.
MR. BURR: No other questions, your Honor.
Thank you, Miss Reyes.
MS. BEHENNA: Nothing further.
THE COURT: All right. Miss Reyes, we'll ask you to
step out now. We have to discuss this, give some legal
argument about it, and then if you come back as a witness,
we'll be asking you to take the oath again; and that's simply
because the jury should see each witness take the oath. That's
a part of evaluating the testimony of the jury -- of the
witness by the jury.
And of course what we're trying to do here is to make
sure that the jurors get information that's relevant to the
hard decision they have to make and that this information which
is from victims -- which is what you're classified as for this
purpose -- is, you know, not influenced in any way by any
emotional reaction that you've had to the trial. You
understand?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: 'Cause we're trying to have this jury
decide on the basis of information, not on the basis of
emotion. And I'm sure you agree that that's what we should
have.
Okay.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down.
Well, counsel for the defendant, do you have any
objections to these witnesses?
Mr. Nigh.
MR. NIGH: Yes, your Honor, it's very brief.
THE COURT: All right. You can do it from there,
certainly.
DEFENDANT'S ARGUMENT ON MOTION TO EXCLUDE WITNESSES
MR. NIGH: We would object to the testimony of both of
them, in that the observations of the trial cannot, I would
submit, help but affect their testimony. In reference to
Ms. Leonard, she intends to offer testimony about what she
observed on the 19th. Certainly there has been a lot of
evidence concerning the 19th. And also she is still sorting
through some of these things. And she intends to offer
testimony about impact upon her life, and we would submit that
that cannot escape influence from the testimony in court.
And I believe the same would be true to Miss Reyes in
terms of impact, and we would also stand upon the objection we
previously made.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. NIGH: The constitutional objection.
THE COURT: Yes, I understand.
RULING ON MOTION TO EXCLUDE WITNESSES
THE COURT: Well, the issue is whether the
observations that these witnesses have testified about of trial
proceedings create a prejudice or will cause any influence or
effect on the testimony that they're expected to give
concerning the effects of the crimes; and considering what the
witnesses have said here and also the demeanor and manner of
these witnesses, which I think is extremely important -- I mean
I put these questions, myself, to them in a way in which it
would seem to me that if they were influenced by this court's
rulings or defense counsel's zealous advocacy or Mr. McVeigh's
presence, they would have shown some reaction. They didn't.
Strikes me that both of these women are quite disciplined and
emotionally prepared to give relevant testimony without the
influence of any emotional reaction to the observations of the
trial that they have made.
So I'm going to permit their testimony.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, may I speak to one matter as
to Diane Leonard?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. MACKEY: I spoke to Mr. Burr this morning. There
is one photograph, family photograph, that I'd like to show
Mrs. Leonard. It's Government Exhibit 1452. It depicts
Mr. Leonard, Mrs. Leonard, and his three sons gathered before a
fireplace. If you look carefully behind the persons, you can
see some Christmas decorations, and if asked, she would say it
was taken during the holiday season. I've instructed her, if
we identify this photograph, she is not to use the word
"Christmas." I did want to alert the Court, and I told
Mr. Burr about the same matter.
THE COURT: So it isn't going to be testimony "This
was our last Christmas together" or something like that.
MR. MACKEY: No.
MR. BURR: I told Mr. Mackey we did not object.
THE COURT: All right.
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