Partial Transcript
The Oklahoma City Bombing Trial Transcripts
Thursday, June 5, 1997
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO
Criminal Action No. 96-CR-68
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,
vs.
TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH,
Defendant.
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
(Trial to Jury - Volume 134)
Proceedings before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. MATSCH,
Judge, United States District Court for the District of
Colorado, commencing at 8:30 a.m., on the 5th day of June,
1997, in Courtroom C-204, United States Courthouse, Denver,
Colorado.
Proceeding Recorded by Mechanical Stenography, Transcription
Produced via Computer by Paul Zuckerman, 1929 Stout Street,
P.O. Box 3563, Denver, Colorado, 80294, (303) 629-9285
APPEARANCES
PATRICK M. RYAN, United States Attorney for the
Western District of Oklahoma, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400,
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, 73102, appearing for the plaintiff.
JOSEPH H. HARTZLER, LARRY A. MACKEY, BETH WILKINSON,
SCOTT MENDELOFF, JAMIE ORENSTEIN, AITAN GOELMAN, and VICKI
BEHENNA, Special Attorneys to the U.S. Attorney General, 1961
Stout Street, Suite 1200, Denver, Colorado, 80294, appearing
for the plaintiff.
STEPHEN JONES, ROBERT NIGH, JR., RICHARD BURR, and
RANDALL COYNE, Attorneys at Law, Jones, Wyatt & Roberts, 999
18th Street, Suite 2460, Denver, Colorado, 80202; MANDY WELCH,
Attorney at Law, 412 Main, Suite 1150, Houston, Texas, 77002;
CHERYL A. RAMSEY, Attorney at Law, Szlichta and Ramsey, 8 Main
Place, Post Office Box 1206, Stillwater, Oklahoma, 74076, and
CHRISTOPHER L. TRITICO, Attorney at Law, Essmyer, Tritico &
Clary, 4300 Scotland, Houston, Texas, 77007, appearing for
Defendant McVeigh.
* * * * *
PROCEEDINGS
(In open court at 8:30 a.m.)
THE COURT: Be seated, please.
Good morning.
I have a witness list here for today, and I've
reviewed this -- I see that you have Clint Seidl. He's the
young boy.
MR. HARTZLER: Yes.
THE COURT: I reviewed his statement, and I'm
concerned about it. This statement includes his observation of
his mother in her casket, and I don't believe that's
appropriate.
MR. RYAN: Fine, your Honor. I'll have that deleted
from his statement, and I'll notify him at the noon hour.
THE COURT: And I also don't think he should testify.
Perhaps reading the statement with that deleted and identifying
it as a son's statement -- is the father going to testify?
MR. RYAN: Just for -- if the son testifies, then the
father will only testify for --
THE COURT: -- foundation.
MR. RYAN: -- foundation.
THE COURT: Well, I've reflected on that, and I know
that I said it could be done; but in view of the impacts
yesterday on the jury and some of the more poignant testimony,
I believe it would be inflammatory.
MR. RYAN: For him to testify at all or for that
passage?
THE COURT: For him to testify, a boy of that age and
obvious innocence, apparently. So I will exclude it.
Now, we have with today's other witnesses, three who
have seen some of the case?
MR. HARTZLER: That's correct.
THE COURT: And Mr. Manspeaker tells me that you
reported to him that two of them just saw the verdict, the
return of the verdict.
MR. HARTZLER: That's also correct.
THE COURT: Do you want to voir dire them if all they
saw was the return of the verdict? That's Kay Ice and Peggy
Broxterman.
MR. HARTZLER: Yes, your Honor.
MR. JONES: We have some concern about their
testifying. Miss Broxterman, the Court may remember, is the
lady whose picture was on the front page of the newspaper in
the evening news with her arms raised over her head.
THE COURT: No, I don't.
MR. JONES: It was the very dramatic front page
picture.
THE COURT: All right. And the other is Jeanne Gist.
MR. HARTZLER: Correct, Jeannine.
THE COURT: She has seen some of the testimony and
trial proceedings.
MR. HARTZLER: Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, she saw some of the
testimony in Oklahoma City. I don't think she's seen very much
of it.
THE COURT: Well, we might as well just take them in
order and whatever time it takes, we'll do it. Kay Ice is the
first according to the sequence you've got outlined here.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, I can proffer as to
Mrs. Ice's testimony.
THE COURT: Yes, please.
MR. MACKEY: She's the sister of Paul Ice, who was
killed in the bombing, the Customs agent. And on behalf of the
family, she will describe the impact of his loss. She was
living in Oklahoma City for several months prior to the time of
the bombing, shared time with her brother, that sort of thing.
THE COURT: Knows something about his law enforcement
career?
MR. MACKEY: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Kay Ice affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Sharon Kay Ice, I-C-E.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
EXAMINATION
BY THE COURT:
Q. Ms. Ice, we've asked you to come in before your appearance
Kay Ice - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
before the jury in trial because I think you're probably aware
of a ruling that I made early on in this proceeding concerning
persons who are going to appear as witnesses even here in this
penalty phase who have seen all or part of the trial
proceedings.
A. Correct.
Q. And then that was -- I reversed that ruling because of a --
an enactment by the Congress. And now the reason that we're
here to ask you a few questions to determine whether you should
testify is on the knowledge that you have seen -- as I
understand it -- all you have seen is the return of the
verdict?
A. Correct.
Q. And were you here in this courtroom?
A. I was in this courtroom.
Q. And of course you saw the reading of the verdict and the
reactions of the people in the courtroom, and also you observed
Mr. McVeigh at that time, the defendant.
A. Very briefly. I was on the back row, and I really didn't
see him until he was escorted out.
Q. All right. Just tell me, if you will, what reaction you
had seeing what you saw.
A. You know, I had an internal reaction to the verdict, and I
think that was -- that was primarily all that I was focused on.
Q. You're going to be asked questions, as I understand it,
Kay Ice - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
about your brother's law enforcement career and the effects on
the family of his death as a result of this bombing.
A. Yes.
Q. A question for you to answer for us is whether what you saw
and felt, heard here in the courtroom previously would in any
way influence the testimony that you expect to give.
A. Absolutely not.
THE COURT: Do you have any questions?
MR. JONES: I have one or two, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. JONES: Do you want me to stand here?
THE COURT: That's fine.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Ma'am, when would -- could you tell me, when the verdict
came in, were you sitting in your seat?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You did not kneel or change your sitting position?
A. No. No.
Q. All right.
MR. JONES: Thank you very much. That's all.
THE COURT: Thank you. When you come back in, as you
will, to be testifying, we'll give you the oath again, but
that's just because the jury needs to see each witness take the
oath. That's part of the demeanor and manner of the witness on
the stand. Thank you.
Next.
MR. HARTZLER: Peggy Broxterman.
THE COURT: What's she going to testify?
MR. MACKEY: She's the mother of Paul Broxterman, the
HUD agent with the office of Inspector General, who was killed.
She will give an overview of his military and law enforcement
career and describe the impact of her son's loss.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you raise your right
hand, please.
(Peggy Broxterman affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Peggy Joanne Godby Broxterman,
B-R-O-X-T-E-R-M-A-N.
EXAMINATION
BY THE COURT:
Q. Mrs. Broxterman.
A. Yes.
Q. We've asked you to come in before you appear as a witness
in the trial. You see that the jury is not here. And this is
sort of a preliminary inquiry of you because it's my
information that you were in the courtroom here when there was
Peggy Broxterman - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
the return of the verdict.
A. I was in the auxiliary.
Q. The auxiliary?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So you heard it without seeing it?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you seen any part of the trial?
A. No, sir.
Q. Either here or in Oklahoma City?
A. No. No.
Q. So you listened in with others in the auxiliary courtroom?
A. Yes.
Q. And the question here is whether anything that you
experienced in connection with that would influence the
testimony that you are to give in this matter. My
understanding is that you are the mother of Mr. Broxterman who
was killed in the bombing --
A. Correct.
Q. -- and know something of his military and law enforcement
career and would be testifying about that.
A. Yes.
Q. So what I have to ask you is whether your testimony -- and
only you can tell us this, really -- would be influenced -- or
will be influenced by your perception of this case from what
you heard when you --
Peggy Broxterman - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
A. No.
Q. -- heard the return of the verdict.
A. No. No, it -- no.
Q. So you're telling us, as I understand it, that you wouldn't
be testifying any differently if you had not --
A. That's correct. My testimony will not be influenced by
anything.
Q. Okay.
THE COURT: I think I understand this. I'll ask the
defense if you wish to voir dire.
MR. JONES: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Jones.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. JONES:
Q. Just a few questions, ma'am.
A. Yes.
Q. Other than sitting in the room next door, have you observed
any of the other part of the trial?
A. No.
Q. So you didn't attend any of the television --
A. No, I'm from Las Vegas, and I didn't go to Oklahoma.
Q. All right. Mrs. Broxterman, when the verdict came in, did
it have an impact on you?
A. Yes.
Q. And would you describe for me just briefly the impact it
Peggy Broxterman - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
had on you.
A. Exhilaration.
Q. So receiving -- hearing the verdict being received had the
impact on you to make you exhilarated; is that correct?
A. Yes, very happy.
Q. And then after the verdict came in, did you go out to the
front of the courthouse?
A. Yes, I went out through the front door.
Q. And did you raise your arms and say to the members of the
press, "Yes, yes," or words to that effect?
A. I said, "Justice is done."
Q. "Justice is done," thank you. And you repeated that
several times, as I recall?
A. I . . . probably.
Q. Yes. And then that scene of you raising your hands and
saying, "Justice is done," you know appeared on the front page
of the Rocky Mountain News?
A. I think it did.
Q. Yes. And also on each of the evening news telecasts from
New York; correct?
A. I guess so. I don't know.
Q. And did it also appear on the local broadcasts? Do you
know?
A. I don't know. I didn't see it.
Q. All right. Now, have you also since then or during that
Peggy Broxterman - Cross (Out of the presence of the jury)
time appeared on various programs such as "Nightline"?
A. "Nightline," no.
MR. JONES: I don't believe I have any further
questions. Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you. When you come back in to
testify, you'll be given the oath again.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE COURT: That's just so the jury can see you take
the oath as every other witness. That's part of their being
able to evaluate the demeanor and manner of the witness and
their testimony.
THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
THE COURT: You may step down.
Wait.
With respect to Miss Broxterman, I don't see that
there's any problem with her other than -- you know, she'd
reacted to it, but she could react to it just by getting the
news of it without having heard it in the courtroom.
MR. JONES: I understand, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. So we'll go to Jeanne Gist.
What's she going to testify about?
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, she's the mother of Karen
Gist Carr, who was 32, worked in Army Recruiting and was killed
in the bombing. She'll testify about the impact of Karen's
death on her and the family.
MR. HARTZLER: Her name is actually misspelled. It's
Jeannine.
THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please.
(Jeannine Gist affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Would you have a seat, please.
Would you state your full name for the record and
spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Jeannine Gist, G-I-S-T.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
BY THE COURT:
Q. Mrs. Gist, we're wanting to ask you a few questions
regarding your having seen portions of the trial.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And whether that has had any influence or impact on you
that would influence your testimony. I think you know about
the background of why we're doing this, because at one time I
excluded all witnesses --
A. Yes.
Q. -- including penalty phase witnesses, and then that was
changed as a result of a change in the law. And then what I'd
ruled was that when people have seen all or part of the trial,
we would ask them about whether their testimony would be
affected or has been affected by it. So that's why we're here
Jeannine Gist - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
without the jury being here and before we resume the trial.
Now, tell us, first off, what you did see and where.
A. I saw the opening statements, the first two days of the
trial, and the morning of the closing statements.
Q. Were you here?
A. No, I was at the closed-circuit in Oklahoma City.
Q. All right. And you of course -- and you saw all of the
opening statements, the Government's and the defendant's?
A. Yes.
Q. And then the first day or two of testimony?
A. No, I saw the first two days of the trial, which included
the opening statements of both attorneys and there was some
testimony the second day.
Q. Yes. All right. And then again towards the end of the
trial?
A. The closing statements. I got locked out the last half, so
I didn't see the last half of that.
Q. You got locked out?
A. Yeah, well, during break they don't let you back in if you
miss the -- so I didn't see the last half of the closings.
Q. All right. Well, and as I understand it, what you're
being -- going to be called as a witness for in this case is to
talk about the loss of your daughter?
A. Yes.
Q. Karen Gist Carr?
Jeannine Gist - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
A. Yes.
Q. And at the time that you watched on the closed-circuit
television monitor there in Oklahoma City, you saw -- of course
saw all of the participants here in the well? We call this the
well of the court.
A. Yes.
Q. And I guess from a distance, as if you were seated in the
back here, you saw Mr. McVeigh.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And could observe his demeanor and manner --
A. Uh-huh.
Q. -- on the days that you watched. Also his lawyers and
their statements and objections and --
A. Yes.
Q. -- and the flow of the case.
The question for you is -- to answer for us is what
impact that may have had on you in terms of your ability to
testify in the same way as you would if you had not seen it.
A. Well, I don't believe that that had an impact on me. In
the first place, you can't even see the expressions on the
closed-circuit in Oklahoma City. You can see bodies, but it's
hard to even determine who's who.
Q. Well, I'm sorry it isn't better. I didn't design the
system.
A. Yeah.
Jeannine Gist - Examination (Out of the presence of the jury)
Q. But you had some emotional reaction to some of those
things, probably.
A. Yeah. Sure.
Q. And only you can tell us this. I mean I'm not trying to
cross-examine you --
A. Well, it's not going to impact the way I feel about the
loss of my daughter.
Q. All right.
A. You know, that's what I'm here to testify for.
Q. You understand what I'm concerned about, and one of the
reasons for all this is whether your testimony would be
influenced by anger different from whatever anger you may
already have felt before you did or a need for revenge --
A. Oh, no.
Q. -- or those things?
A. No, anger doesn't seem to be a part of it. It's just
mostly sorrow and just grief.
Q. Okay. Well, I'm sorry, you know, that we have to put you
through this additional part of it, but I hope you understand
the reasons.
A. Certainly.
THE COURT: Do you have any questions?
MR. JONES: I don't have any questions. Thank you.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may step --
oh, when you come back in to testify, we'll give you an oath.
It isn't that we don't believe you after this one, but the jury
should see each witness take the oath.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: As part of their observations of the
witnesses.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: You may step down.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: Are those all the preliminaries?
MR. JONES: Yes, your Honor. If I may, first, renew
our constitutional argument.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. JONES: As the Court has noted. The witness that
I have greatest concern about of any of these is
Mrs. Broxterman, and I know the Court has made its ruling, but
I wondered if the Court would consider my request that the
Government counsel speak to Mrs. Broxterman again.
This is my concern: The lady was obviously impacted
by the verdict, and the word that she used was "exhilarated,"
and she was full of energy. And my concern is that no matter
what careful admonitions and counsel the Government lawyers
have given here and I'm sure they have given her, that once she
gets into the Court and that adrenaline starts to pump and it
gets away from us before we can impose the objection. I don't
know that that could happen, of course, but I did see Miss
Broxterman and I certainly understand her emotion and certainly
was not inappropriate for the circumstances there just as long
as it doesn't also come in here. Other than that, that's my
concern.
THE COURT: Yes, I don't think that she -- as I
said -- she's different from others who may have had an
emotional response to the verdict, no matter how they heard it.
But you will of course caution the witness to not go
beyond the questions and to limit the testimony in accordance
with the overall guidelines.
MR. MACKEY: Your Honor, we have already spoken with
Mrs. Broxterman about the decorum necessary for the courtroom.
THE COURT: All right. Well, we can take 10 minutes,
then, before we start. We'll be in recess till 9.
(Recess at 8:51 a.m.)
